There are a lot of unanswered questions as to the death of the young men. No where was there any statement of them standing on a bus stop and a car driving by shot them. At least none that I have heard. I know the folks that discovered the bodies. It's a mystery at this point. No gun shots were heard. No busses run at that hour. There is talk and it is being investigated, of an altercation earlier in the evening at the Greenhouse involving the gentlemen.
I am sorry about the whole incident and I know they are working hard to find out what happened.

Meanwhile my advise to you on yor visit is one that is echoed and printed most places for vistors to read:
Don't answer your door without verifying who it is.
Keep track of your room key.
Lock all doors and sliding-glass doors.
Don't invite strangers into your room.
Don't display large amounts of cash or expensive jewelry.
Place all valuables in the hotel safe.
Be aware of your surroundings if you are out late at night.
Stay in well lit areas.
If you see suspicious activity, notify the hotel staff.

RL

We are getting married in STT in a couple of weeks. Up until I read this news yesterday, I wasn't really worried. Unfortunately, I am really concerned now. I know statistically it's about as safe some US cities, but honestly, I don't find that info too consoling. Does anyone have anymore safety advice? We are not staying in a resort, but renting a large house (not in a gated community) near Lindberg Bay.

I know not to wear lots of expensive jewelry, or carry designer bags, etc.I know not to go out alone.

-Are there places we should avoid, particularly at night?
-Is it safe to walk back to your rental car at night if you do go out?

I hate to sound like a compulsive worrier, I'm typically much more laid back. Bu last night I found myself lying awake in bed, worrying about the safety of my family and our guests.

Thanks for any advice

Dear Kasey,

I will probably take heat for this, but I live on St. Thomas, and here are the places I avoid when I am by myself at night:

Back Street (downtown)
Parts of Smith Bay
Parts of Bovoni
Any place I'm not familiar with that seems a little creepy

Honestly, just trust your gut. Like Ronnie said, use the usual precautions. If you're ever unsure, ask your contacts down here- most people are very willing to opine/advise.

In my opinion, St. Thomas is just like any other city with a lot of tourism- it has its lovely points, and it has its crime. I think the big mistake some tourists make here is drinking too much, and expecting this island to be like a Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean attraction. Sometimes people let their guard down, or get adventurous and take risks they normally wouldn't take.

I know that there have been incidents involving crime with tourists -- which is a crying shame, since the USVI is a lovely destination, and the bad deeds of a few are negatively impacting the islands' major income source and reputation! I know too that some of the tourists who have been affected were sober, cautious, and completely innocent. So you do need to be careful.

That said...I think St. Thomas is a fabulous place for a wedding!

We got married recently in St. Thomas, and had lots of stateside guests- they all had a great time, and no problems at all (some were here for 3 weeks!).

Feel free to private message me if you have any questions or concerns- or ask the board- this is really a great resource.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!

Best,

LR

Here's a link to an article in the NY Daily News. How incredibly sad for all involved--and for St. Thomas.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/319924p-273571c.

(Scroll down and click on the second story.)

Yes, very sad!

I'm pointing my finger at the police and govt of the islands. I've read report after report where there is NEVER a lead, NEVER a suspect, NEVER a prosecution, NEVER a resolution! I'm sure there are some crimes that are solved. But, in the reports I've been reading, I haven't seen one.

As long as crimes go unpunished on STT, they'll continue to escalate.

I've read that the US Marshalls are now on the island. I know that the Marshalls usually operate in conjuntion with the FBI and local police. I think the local police and law enforcement agencies need to be completely taken over by the task force. Enough is enough!

I feel badly for everyone...not just the tourists. I feel badly for the locals who have to endure crime without punishment...and for the businesses that are sure to suffer, eventually.

Will it become like Jamaica? - a place I won't visit because I don't want to be confined to my resort, wearing a wristband and wondering what danger lurks outside of the security gates. Once this happens, the local restaurants and shops might as well shut down.

And, you see, they weren't white. This monster has no color-preferences.

Well, this is going to have an impact. It's on the cover of the NY Daily. What an odd twist of events - NYers leave the big city and head to paradise - and meet this fate .

I'm expected my mother to call any minute - as I'm headed down with the kids in less than two weeks. Ok, as I was typing this my dad called - former Asst Atty General of USVI. He's very, very sad.

I just sent an e-mail to the USVI Department of Tourism. I can't imagine the working people of STT don't understand that the impact of stuff like this will affect their livelihood. Again I suggest that even if the VIPD is clueless, I bet some of the killer(s) neighbors are not. There has to be a way that locals can anonamously tip of the police (so they don't become targets). In the age of the internet and message boards, coupled with the situation in Aruba. This is going to have very serious implications!

Bluwater,

What you forgot to add to your list of "NEVER"s is NEVER a witness. This, in my opinion, is the biggest obstacle the police face in first, bringing charges, and second, in prosecuting the case.

On an island as small as St. Thomas, how do you provide protection to those who are brave enough to come forward? I've got to believe that for every violent crime committed in the V.I., at least ONE person knows who did it. The problem is, retaliation is a very real threat for those who might wish to come forward as a witness against the perpetrators. I don't know how you solve that conundrum. It's not like you're likely to find people who are willing to give up their homes, family, and friends to enter a witness protection program in a community as close-knit as you'll find in the islands.

The police can't be everywhere. It takes a commitment from the community to assist them in solving and prosecuting crimes. But the community fears for their lives. So what to do?

Ginger - I was just telling my dad about your story (I rememebr it well!) because my parents love SH. And I was recounting Dr. Dave's horrific ordeal.

And, I agree with Wes - someone KNOWS what happened - someone ALWAYS knows!

In my humble opinion, I think the island is too full of non-natives and non-Americans. There are just too many foreigners living on the island and they have no pride in the land and no skin in the game. They are on the island to take advantage of tourism and collect cash - but their "home" is someplace else, as is their family. Why should they care if things go bad....they'll just go someplace else or go home. No, they're not all like this...but I think this is a big part of the problem. The drug trade is another part of the problem. STT is, unfortunately, a port for drugs entering the US. There's not much being done to control it. All the more reason why the closing of Renaissance is a problem....as the far end of that beach was always a "drop point" at night (boats come in under cover of darkness and drop their cargo). Now that the property is vacant, I wonder how much that has picked up. Heck, the cops never patrolled it much...but it was at least lit and sometimes populated. Yes, the drug trade is HUGE part of the problem...always has been.

Like you, Ginger, I'm still going too. But, the gov't (stateside and local) is going to have to step up more. If it takes machine-gun toting guys in army fatigues to get the island safe again, so be it. I'll raise my painkiller to them!

My parents just called their oldest and dearest friend on the STT to check on the mood of the island and see what her take is (a french family with generations on STT) - and received the sad news that the home of their friend was ransacked and burglarized last week while she was out....and she's afraid now. The burglers also hit her son's house - on the same property as hers - trashing both homes.

She told my mom that she feels the problem is lack of criminal prosecution, so witnesses don't think it's worth it to come forth and risk retaliation....as the criminal will be back on the street the next day.

She said the homes on her road were heavily burglarized recently - not just hers. And, she said 3 hotel rooms at Sapphire were burglarized in the last few weeks. Mom made it sound like the Sapphire burglaries happened all within a day or two. Maybe someone here has more info.

Being a Crusian, I find myself in the unusual position of writing in defense of STT. As most folks know there's a pretty intense rivalry between our islands. But there are times to put rivalries aside and this one of them. This incident affects the entire Territory.

The incident with these two young men was indeed tragic. Their killers may or may not be found. I hope they are and suffer the full consequences of their actions.

We have quite a few US Marshalls and FBI agents stay at our hotel. I have had some opportunities to talk to them about the lack of success our police have in apprehending criminals. To a person, they have all said that our police try, and they really want to solve our crimes here. The problem is a lack of training. One US Marshall told me that the VIPD just doesn't know how to conduct a proper investigation. That's sad. If we can ever convince our elected officials to use the money at their disposal for its intended use instead of putting it in their pockets, that situation should improve. The trick is to convince the elected officials.

There appears to be more crime in the USVI than there actually is because of our newspapers. STT and STX are basically small towns and have small town newspapers. When a crime occurs, it's pretty big news so the papers make a big deal of it. That's the same way it is everywhere. Unfortunately, our potential visitors can read about it on-line. The appearance is given that we are crime ridden islands and if you come here you will be robbed and murdered. I really feel that's not the case. The vast majority of the people here will do our best to make your stay as pleasant as possible. Yes, ocassionally bad things happen here. I wish they didn't, but sometimes they do. Things are not as bad as they might seem and most of us are trying to make it better.

Don't change your plans. Come to STT. Come to STX. They are great places with really super people.

Ric

Hi Ronnie,

We heard the News up here in NY about the shootings, Im so sorry for the family, they always suffer the worse. The thing is, NOT KNOWING - which is so frustrating. I can't imagine how that poor Mother feels about her missing daughter in Aruba ! We go to St. Thomas every year in mid-September, and have been going for the past 19 years. I told you on the message board last September that we're good friends with "YANKEE" a/k/a Joe, the cabbie down there & we have known him since our first trip to the Island 19 years ago. Let me tell you, whenever we go into town or out to dinner I make sure he's with us.

Even though the Island is beautiful, there are a lot of seedy looking people eyeballing you (gives me the creeps) Some low-life had come up to me one evening outside the GreenHouse - thank god Joe was walking behind us - he went up to this person and moved him along with a few "choice words" - so I feel safe with my Island Cabbie chapperone, if you will among us when we venture out. We usually go into town once or twice to do some jewelry shopping & souveniers hunting during the day,

When we go out for dinner Joe picks us up and brings us to different places, at times he'll sit down & dine w/us - then there are times he'll drop us off and he'll come back to check on us, and then take us back to the Hotel. He is such a sweet and kind man with a heart of GOLD. If more Island people were like him, the Island would be a safer place "no matter what part of town you're in".

You know what strikes me silly? They tell tourists not to go into town wearing lots of jewelry, yet when you see the Islanders' they're loaded and draped in GOLD, GOLD, GOLD....go figure!

Anyway.....the theory is I guess regardless if you're in St.Thomas, or anywhere else is to be careful, aware, and always a little on guard, and always trust your instincts..

Thanks, Ronnie - hopefully I'll get to meet you this September - Last September was a little difficult - That's when hurricane Jeanne was in town, - remember that?...Take care honey - Karen

I am a native Virgin Islander born right there in Charlotte Amalie, but currently living in Ft. Lauderdale.

I am saddened by the events and even more troubled by the fact that there appears to be NO startng point on this case. There is hardly anything one can think of (being that self defense against these young men is apparently ruled out) to justify their murders, however, I'm just a little concerned about the time and find it a little puzzling that they were down there (a pretty deserted area that time of night) that time of the night. I won't rule out something drug related because you REALLY don't know what people are involved in no matter how "good" they may be or seem, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a previous altercation in which matters ended in their deaths.

Ok, I have not lived in St.Thomas for years now, but I keep abreast on the news there and one thing I have observed is that random killings do not plague our islands - St.Thomas at least. Most of the murders (by far) that have occured over the years involve these young punks down there settling old beefs. There is some unwritten rule in St.Thomas that if you and I have an argument or run in, coming back later to settle the matter with bloodshed is how it should be resolved (I have lost a few friends this way). Stupid amd foolish, but that has become the mentality down there so I could see this as being a retaliation IF indeed there was an earlier altercation at the club, worse if alcohol was involved.

That being said, my other half is from Jamaica, an island I have visited many times. There the gun culture is a part of the fabric of that nation owing its place in Jamaican society to gun politics that started in the 70s when politicians outfitted their constituencies with guns to intimidate rival political areas. After the gunmen experienced the power of the gun, it was hard to ask them back for them and now the gun in Jamaica is as ubiquitous as ganja. Still a lovely island and there are areas that are still relatively safe, but violence there can be random. In St.Thomas we don't have a gun culture per se, within the actual fabric of our island where gunmen roam the island killing people for their money or no reason whatsoever, BUT we do have violent people who itch to use their guns if you cross them so it behooves all (tourits and natives alike) to be careful what you say, don't get all liquored up and start acting "bad," or trying to prove something as if you run the island. An apology can go a very long way. Club rage is very real there as anywhere else. We Virgin Islanders can tell you how altercations at our local dances escalated into something else at another event because everybody in there thinks they're bad.

I would not shun St. Thomas. One just has to be vigilant, careful, do not take everything for granted and most of all, do NOT start or look for altercations with the natives ESPECIALLY if you go to a place or event where you will encounter many of them. If you're gonna drink and get rowdy, make sure you have someone with you to keep you under control and you SHOULD have someone with you who remains sober and vigilant and I know some tourists come to our island looking for "some good sh*t." This brings you in direct contact with people of questionable character. I suggest one leaves that kind of fun alone.

Orion-

I believe you've offered VERY sound advice. Thank you. I agree that it's very important for visitors to understand that what you might say/do to your stateside neighbor cannot be repeated on the island. In the states, verbal exhanges of varying degrees of internsity are nothing to be afraid of...and can easily end with everyone agreeing, or not...but would usually not end with murder. In some instances, people in the states might even challenge each other to "a fair one" (remember the old adage: "if you can't get along, get a fair one on"). Well, a "fair one" involves absolutely no weapons and only a "one on one" fight. Seems that our neighbors in the territory go straight past the fair one and directly into an unfair, cold-blooded resolution. It's a pretty "sissy" way to solve things. What, they don't know how to fight?

Anyway, the good news for visitors is that these crimes really aren't random in nature, as you've already stated, Orion. I truly believe that, which is why I'm willing to come as a single woman bringing my children. Mind you, my son is 18 and is bringing another 18 yr old friend...and I'll have a loooooong talk with them about how to avoid "run ins" with certain situations....and they will not go out at night and bar hop, 'cept on STJ -maybe (which is probably just what they want to do, being that they've just turned 18 and the legal age is 21 here). .....which leads me to wonder how many of these crimes are committed by 18-21 yr olds and how many involve alcohol....you can see where I'm going with that.

Anyway, this issue really makes the Boyson car barge discussion pale in comparison. Now wonder nobody is really working to address stuff like that...the territory has much larger problems looming.

I still think visitors are relatively safe. Yes, people like Ginger and Dr. Dave have very valid points and have experiences the island at it's worse for visitors. But, I don't think there's anything extraordinary going on that impacts visitors. I do wish the hotels/resorts would beef up their restaurant service, live entertainment and such so that visitors can sequester themselves from the nonsense going on in establishments frequented by these hot-heads. I don't find anything remotely appealing about people who shoot each other over who stepped on whose shoes....no matter where I am in the world and how beautiful the beaches are.

There are, of course, well run establishments where the atmosphere is calm, upscale and you can feel completely safe, even in town.....like Cuzzins. Bottom line is visitors will have to take care to dine where the well-to-do of the island dine. You can't just show up on STT and throw yourself in with everyone. You just don't know who's who. The island is full of professional, educated, pillar-of-society natives.......there are doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners, government officials, etc. You wouldn't find THEM trying to get a beer at some roadside shack at 2am.....and for good reason. So, you shouldn't try to do that either. Would you show up on NYC and say "hey, I heard that they serve the best soul food in Harlem, let's go!! Who cares if it's 2am?" No, you wouldn't. These two who were just recently shot were in Frenchtown, a ghost town that time of night.....nowhere near ANY resorts, away from downtown, a not so nice residential neighborhood with a couple of restaurants that were surely closed....and a few seedy bars. Frankly, I wonder how they got there and am betting that whomever took them there was part of the crime.

Anyway, this is not a "random, waiting on the bus stop" crime.

It is wonderful to hear the thoughtful discussions that this topic has encouraged.

We all want a safe and threat free paradise. The comments about the "gun culture" on Jamaica are freightening in the extreme. I have gone to Jamaica twice (a beautiful island) and always stayed in "all-inclusive resorts, and never left the resort due to the fear of attack from the local community.

Is it possible that ST Thomas will become like that too??

I have been a part of the USVI for more than 15 years. I have lived here for periods of time and have visited resorts and the BVI during that time.

I have never been as "uncomfortable" with crime on the islands as I am now.

It is time for the USVI government and the police to step up and do their job...

No more lies

I was talking to my brother today and we were discussing why murders go frequently unsolved back home. Someone touched on it. The island is obviously very small and our cops are people many of us grew up with and because the island is so small people know one another and news gets around real fast. What we both concluded was odd was tat no one wants to talk when they know something, but IF someone talks, everyone knows who did (the talking).

I am from the Bovoni area and I was home in January for my sister's wedding. In fact, I was on the beach (Magen's Bay) on the friday before her wedding and a wedding too place right next to where I was watching my 4 small children in the water. On a few occasions on my way to my mom's house, I saw old running mates who still sit on the corner where we used to hang out back in the day. Since I have been away I have heard of some of them getting into trouble or just doing nothing with their lives so what I did was always had a ready excuse why I could not sit and hang with them which I told them from my rental car. This showed them I was not ignoring them or disrespecting them or acting as if I am better than them, BUT it also ensured I was not in their company if some kind of retaliation took place considering I have no idea who has ongoing beefs with who. This is me, a native, excercising common sense and discretion.

I love my island, the entire Caribbean in fact. I am well aware we have our problems which are really no different from anywhere else. The term "paradise" does not mean one completely abandons reality or common sense. I KNOW for a fact that the overwhelming majority of our people wish all of our visitors well and does not mind their presence. We just happen to have some seedy characters in our midst who are a blight to our society and we despise their ways, but as some have pointed out we are playing with these clowns. Interestingly enough, poverty is not a critical factor in our islands, though relatively speaking, with the prices I see down there, things are not easy either. I think the problem has more to do with idleness due to lack of challenging jobs and a lack of interest on the part of our government to cater to their youth. Parks we used to play in have been neglected. With nothing to do for recreation, showing off guns on the street corners is the sport of choice.

In closing, come to our islands. Be vigilant, be smart, be up on things. If you know someone from there, someone you KNOW you can trust, even better.

Orion, Your insights are well put. But I have a question when you refer to the "blight" of a few seedy characters are haveing on your beloved islands. I think that, (in my view) is a mis-characterization. I would refer to them as a malignant tumor. A blight is something you live with, a malignant tumor is something that will KILL YOU! If your doctor told you you had a malignancy you would have your physician surgically remove it and undergo chemo-therapy and radiation to make sure you got it all! However I do think you absolutely nailed the root of the problem. "If someone tells, everyone will know who did." I recall reading about the death of a thug recently on STX, who had been charged with several crimes including murder, yet he was never brought to trial, because no one would testify against him. One potential witness was indeed killed. What the people of the USVI and their elected representatives, need to understand is this. A month or two from now, a bartender will be laid off, then a maid at Secret Harbor, then a cabbie won't be able to make his car payment and lose his taxi, then a bus boy, then a teller at the bank. Hurricanes aren't always sudden and meteoralogical, they can be gradual and economic. Both are equally devestating! Change will occur when a laid off maid, bartender, cabbie, bus boy, and bank teller, drag their elected representative out of his luxury car and demand something be done!!!! Most of the visitors on this board don't have much say about this...we'll just pick some place else to go.

Well Wes, sorry if it made it sound trivial with my choice of words. I certainly agree with you and I was not downplaying these killers and troublemakers.

Recently on another bulletin board we natives hang out on, the question arose as to why St. Croix (being larger and flatter) falters behind St.Thomas. Almost everyone pointed to the Fountain Valley incident in the 70s. Apparently, it sent St. Croix reeling and the tourist ships stopped coming. We in St. Thomas are well aware that such a thing can happen to us and your point about people losing jobs and money is a collective concern.

I certainly want the crime to be solved not only for the family to gain some measure of peace, but for ALL of us to gain some peace. No one wants to believe this was just random murders because then ALL of us would have to fear. St.Thomas has never had snipers and serial killers. If there is one slight consolation it is that we are a U.S territory so if mainland agencies wants to get involved they can without red tape and political gymnastics they would have to make just to get somewhere.

I am no stranger to how frustrrating it can be to try to nab crimminals in our islands. My dad is from St. Kitts and that is where I was raised. My uncle, a police superintendent and chief bodyguard of the prime minister and all visiting dignataries, was gunned down in 1994 in a hail of gun fire from an asassin outside his house in St.Kitts while he was on his way to present his findings from some recent murders and corruption incidents to Scotland Yard. Two months earlier I had been on that island and stayed with him, an island I had not visited in 15 years. I was shocked by some of the things he told me because I was still thinking St. Kitts was the island I left where crime was non existent much less murders. He told me that during his investigations, crimminals would be tipped off by local people and other police officers and it became so frustrating that he stopped trying to get search warrants and just did what he had to do which of course drew the ire of some of the local people. It even led to rumors that he was in on the drug trade because he would be seen in some seedy areas in the middle of the night, but what he was actually doing was spying on the activities of suspects. As some of you might be aware the KNOWN author (a native Kittitian) behind his death had his story make it to 60 Minutes, GQ Magazine and America's Most Wanted when he threatened to kill all U.S students at Ross University, an offshore campus of a New York school. The government protected him (he bought them off) before they had no need for him 5 years later and turned him over to U.S authorities. He now sits in an Atlanta penitentary for life on previous charges of murders in the U.S when he and others terrorized the U.S east coast as the imfamous Shower Posse which was popularized in the Steven Segal movie, Hard to Kill, to the frustration of many Jamaicans who were stigmatized because of the Posse members (mostly Jamaicans) and the movie.

Wes, valid points You also have to consider that the issue is clouded by the fact that the VI police force has a bad habit of killing innocent residents/locals and getting away with it. Not one officer, as far as I know, has had his badge stripped after killing a resident - even when the excuse is "oops, my gun accidentally went off three times and killed that man while he was surrendering with his hands up!". There is lots of upheaval in the territory about this kind of stuff. I suspect it's viewed as an equal or larger problem than the resident on resident crime. I've heard the stateside gov't refer to the VI cops as "glorified watchmen who have no training in how to solve crimes or protect the island" (and I AM quoting directly).

After some consideration and much discussion around here, I have concluded that this really isn't anything new. I agree with others who have said that the information age is brining age-old problems to light. But, unless a local resident tells me otherwise, I think this is normal crap for the island....and is, unfortunately, part of the culture.

All of us who have been visiting year after year, thinking we're in paradise, have only fooled ourselves. But, I don't think it's getting worse....or better. It's just that we're now noticing it. So, if people want to stop going, do it because you've learned something new and it makes you concerned...not because anything NEW is happening on the island....because it isn't.

And, the bottom line is that the US Gov't CAN do something about this. But, they choose not to because they feel like they can't change the culture of the islands and they think the mess is too big to clean up. They think it's hopeless. I'm not speculating - I asked - and this is the answer I received.

Orion and Bluwater, Let me clarify I love the USVIs and Orion I know you were not taking this lightly in any way! And yes Bluwater having visited the island at least 15 times over the last 20 years, I know the problems are the same today as they were then! My ONLY point is that nothing will change (government accountability, properly trained police, etc.) until local people demand it! And unfortunately they will not do so until they are persuaded (economically and otherwise to do so!). And by then it's too late. I have friends and my daughter's schoolmates are in Jamaica as I type this on missions trips. They have told me that out in the country and in the mountians they feel safe. But wouldn't go in to Kingston on a bet. Is this the future for St. Thomas? I pray not! Like the mainland I would be willing to wager that the great majority of the violent crime is committed by a handful of criminals.